McIntosh:00:00:00 Welcome back to Satoshi’s Plebs for episode two forty seven. I’m McIntosh.

Kenshin:00:00:05 I am Kenshin. And today, we’re talking about crossing the 20,000,000 Bitcoin mark and about the Cypherpunk Manifesto.

McIntosh:00:00:13 What’s

00:00:14 that? No. I’m just kidding.

00:00:16 Hit the music.

00:00:27 Awesome. Hey. If you don’t know what the Cypherpunk Manifesto is,

00:00:33 hang in there. We’re going to explain that. It’s maybe not a topic,

00:00:37 for the general public,

00:00:40 maybe, that they would know about.

00:00:43 But I also believe that it’s very important. So just please bear with me.

00:00:48 Kenshin, what’s up with you, buddy?

Kenshin:00:00:51 Yeah. Hey.

00:00:53 So

00:00:54 bad news for me. Uh-oh.

McIntosh:00:00:57 You still have a job. Right?

Kenshin:00:01:00 Yeah. Yeah. That that would be good news. Are you still married?

00:01:04 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No. What is your number one fear when you’re

00:01:10 driving to work?

McIntosh:00:01:12 I don’t drive to work.

00:01:14 You don’t drive to work. That’s okay. What? I haven’t driven to work in so many years. I told you for maybe

00:01:21 having an accident.

00:01:23 Yeah. No. My car broke down. Oh, well, that would be the second worst. I would be more worried about an accident. I’m sorry. Right.

Kenshin:00:01:31 Yeah. No. My

00:01:34 my clutch completely broke down on

00:01:37 the way to

McIntosh:00:01:39 to my son’s school actually. Is it a like manual or an automatic? Yeah. It’s a manual. So

00:01:45 you can actually fix that relatively

00:01:47 easily if it’s a manual.

00:01:50 I mean, it’s it’s not cheap. It’s costly. Nothing’s cheap anymore, but it’s cheaper than an automatic.

Kenshin:00:01:57 Yeah. It will be fixed. Yes. It’s gonna cost.

00:02:01 But it’s I’m gonna be without the car now for a week. I’m sorry. And That’s a bummer. So that that’s my worst fear or fear,

00:02:10 whatever. Inconvenience,

00:02:12 you always think on the back of your head, is something gonna break anytime soon?

00:02:16 Especially with an older car.

McIntosh:00:02:18 It’s been more

00:02:20 than ten years since I’ve driven

00:02:22 to work like that,

00:02:24 which is crazy to even It think

00:02:27 is a specific decision that I made

00:02:30 back when remote work was not normal

00:02:34 and it was painful for a while. Actually, well, no, it’s been ten years.

00:02:39 Yeah. No, that’s about right.

00:02:43 Yeah.

00:02:44 But I I work from home

00:02:47 and get Slack messages like just now all the time. Alright. And there’s no boundaries because I

00:02:55 you

00:02:58 know,

00:02:58 anyways,

00:03:00 here we go. Alright. Well, I’m sorry.

00:03:04 I really am. I mean that. Is what else is going on? Is that,

00:03:08 like, Tyler? Is that the well, it’s the low point of your week for sure. That’s the low point. Yeah. What’s the high point? The high

Kenshin:00:03:16 point is I I told you off air, I managed to

00:03:21 talk to my computer for a change Yes. Instead of type from now on. That’s so exciting.

00:03:26 So I’m really excited about that.

00:03:29 And it works with everything on my computer. So I can talk to the AI, I can talk to yeah. On signal, to the messages or anything. And I believe if you don’t

McIntosh:00:03:39 do vibe

00:03:41 coding. I hate to call it that. It’s not really,

00:03:44 but that’s what people wanna call it, vibe coding. If you don’t do what Kenshin and I are doing, you don’t understand how big a deal it is because you sit and talk to the computer all day by typing,

00:03:56 and it’s a lot of typing.

00:03:58 And

00:03:59 you want to iterate as fast as possible. That’s really what these tools are bringing about. So if I can talk at 200 words a minute and I can only type at roughly 35 words a minute,

00:04:11 that’s a huge difference.

Kenshin:00:04:15 Yeah. Exactly. And it’s also,

00:04:17 it it transcribes

00:04:19 the voice with AI locally on the computer. Mhmm. So it it’s fast and it because it’s AI, it understands the context so you can

00:04:28 talk as you talk a bit, you know, not very accurately,

00:04:32 make big poses,

00:04:33 and still it will transcribe a really clean sentence.

McIntosh:00:04:37 I’m very interest so I haven’t done this yet. This is on my to do list. I’m very interested to see how well it transcribes what I say because

00:04:46 I speak southern.

00:04:48 And

00:04:52 yeah.

Kenshin:00:04:53 It doesn’t seem to have any trouble

McIntosh:00:04:56 with my accent either, so I think it’s okay. I it probably would be fine. I the models are getting quite, quite good. And I was amazed at how small it was for what you were saying. You said a gig and a half for the medium model. Right?

00:05:10 Yeah. And the medium is is what you want, I think. Yeah. The smaller ones, you can see that it makes mistakes here and there. Right. And I don’t want the is really good. Yeah. It has to be perfect. And it needs to take out the ums and the

Kenshin:00:05:25 anyways. Yeah.

00:05:26 Those he takes anyway. Alright. So that was good. I do have a question.

McIntosh:00:05:31 Do you have Open Claw talking back to you in a voice yet?

Kenshin:00:05:37 Not yet. No.

McIntosh:00:05:38 Slacker.

00:05:40 No. I’m just kidding. Like,

00:05:42 I don’t have it either way, so what am I even saying?

00:05:46 Alright.

00:05:49 Sir, is your next assignment. No.

00:05:52 That’s if you wanted to.

00:05:54 Cool.

00:05:55 Very awesome. I I’m looking forward to that myself.

Kenshin:00:06:00 Yeah. You need to try it. And it’s quite easy.

00:06:03 The one I use for your information is called VoxType.

McIntosh:00:06:07 V o x t y p e?

Kenshin:00:06:09 Yeah. Okay.

McIntosh:00:06:13 Okay.

00:06:14 It’s

00:06:16 been a rough week. I’ll be honest. I I try not to talk about my job,

00:06:21 but it’s it’s been bad.

00:06:24 Monday morning,

00:06:25 I will so but before noon,

00:06:29 I get a lot of stuff that comes at me, and and, like, I’m the only

00:06:33 I’m the only person that can do it. It’s it’s complete garbage, but it’s just the reality of what it is.

00:06:40 By Monday morning,

00:06:42 by noontime,

00:06:44 I literally had four

00:06:46 different emergencies

00:06:48 that I’m supposed to be working on, and there’s nobody else that can do them.

00:06:53 So please explain to me how that works.

00:06:56 The only way you can do it is you pick the biggest one and you work on it. Right? So I’m actually so now it’s Tuesday,

00:07:03 basically noon when I got started recording,

00:07:06 and I’m halfway through that list. So I’ve I’ve,

00:07:10 quote, resolved two of them. One of them is actually gonna require a lot more work, but at least it’s not an emergency.

00:07:16 I’ve got two more to deal with, and then I’ll kinda be able to go back to regularly scheduled programming.

00:07:22 So what that means is

00:07:24 even though I worked a tremendous amount over the weekend on my agent stuff,

00:07:29 I haven’t quite got to where I want to in terms of an agent

00:07:35 setup. If you’re lucky,

00:07:39 I pray this is true. I don’t I to be honest, I don’t

00:07:42 think I’m gonna do it, but I’m trying.

00:07:45 By the time that this episode comes out, late Wednesday night,

00:07:49 Thursday morning in Europe,

00:07:52 Stack Satoshi will be announcing it

00:07:56 on Noster.

00:07:57 Okay? That’s exciting. So I could actually give you the pub key. You know what? I’m gonna put his pub key in the show notes, actually, is what I’m gonna do.

00:08:08 So because I’ve already generated it. I’m gonna put his pub key in the show notes so you can follow him.

00:08:15 And you should follow him because he will be the producer.

00:08:20 He will be, you know, the podcast producer of the Satoshi’s Clubs pod podcast.

00:08:27 I think he’s gonna be very useful for us. Right? He he’s the things that he’s gonna be able

00:08:34 man,

00:08:35 I guess Stax has got me all choked up.

00:08:40 He looks good though. He’s gonna be extremely useful. But, yeah, he’ll be able to post on Twitter, Mastodon. I’m I’m starting with Noster, but we’ll do all three of those ultimately.

00:08:50 When new episodes come out, he’ll post about our

00:08:55 end of episode music, for example, today.

00:08:58 I’m sorry, I don’t remember their names because they’re brand new this week.

00:09:04 Icarus was the album.

00:09:06 I

00:09:07 don’t and I can’t find it in my notes right now. But he’ll promote

00:09:11 them as they deserve.

00:09:15 He’ll prepare the show notes for us. Right? The script that I ran that we then fill finished filling out. He’ll do that,

00:09:24 probably do the notes for the actual episode itself as well. I mean, we’re it’s we’re gonna automate a lot of this.

00:09:32 Pod Home, actually, our our podcast host has a,

00:09:37 like, a meeting tomorrow

00:09:39 about some of their automation.

00:09:41 I I don’t know if I can make it. I really want to.

00:09:46 I’m very curious as to what he’s doing over there

00:09:50 because I could see a complete end to end system, really, and I’m hoping that’s where he’s going. Like, our agent,

00:09:57 Stack, should be able to reach out to Pod Home and and publish the episode.

00:10:03 And then Wow. We’re just Yeah. Like almost completely out of the loop.

00:10:07 We need to approve stuff. Maybe we’ll just automate us and and we’ll go away.

00:10:14 Show might I’m do

00:10:15 I’m just kidding.

Kenshin:00:10:17 Prognus.

McIntosh:00:10:21 So he

00:10:22 ultimately,

00:10:23 I believe, will actually just be able to push that up to Pod Home when it’s time. So he’ll I I believe he’s even gonna be able to edit the episode.

00:10:32 Now, for a long time, I’m gonna check all this,

00:10:35 but I believe we’ll get to the point where we could almost just kinda we just sit down and record almost.

00:10:41 Almost.

00:10:43 And then Jennifer is up and running as well, by the way.

00:10:48 She’s gonna be our news person.

00:10:50 We’ve discussed what you don’t like Jennifer?

Kenshin:00:10:54 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Just Can she can she You made a funny question. Hear me?

00:10:59 Yeah. I was thinking maybe we should

00:11:02 try to have her own as we said and and she can hear our question and answer.

McIntosh:00:11:07 So I’ve thought about that.

00:11:09 I hope we can. I’m not a 100% certain that we can. I I’m not sure we can work out the logistics of it, but really, I want to have them because we wanna do this show live as well. We’ve already experimented with that in the past, and we wanna do this live, I wanna be able to bring both of them online

00:11:28 and

00:11:29 actually interact with us. They can do it. The question is, is there lag? Is there too much lag?

00:11:36 Right?

00:11:37 But Right. Given the fact that she would just be kinda punching in and doing a segment,

00:11:42 that may be feasible.

00:11:45 Having a a real conversation

00:11:48 with them

00:11:50 because of the latency

00:11:52 because they have to sit there and think. They have to query the LLM is what they’re doing.

00:11:58 That may take too long to make it reasonable,

00:12:01 but we’ll I I wanna experiment with that. I wanna do all this. It’s gonna be really cool Yeah.

Kenshin:00:12:07 Because I can see now, of course,

00:12:09 we

00:12:10 have this technology to talk to them Mhmm. With voice. Right. And then if they have the possibility to talk back, and then we just cut the the gap. Right. So they do the reverse essentially of what you do.

McIntosh:00:12:23 They use a text to speech

00:12:26 like 11 Lab, which is a famous one, probably the most well known,

00:12:30 to

00:12:31 generate the text and then it gets turned into speech and then we hear it. We’ve gotta hook all that up, get it into our workflow where we can hear it, but I think those are all solvable problems. We may be one of the first podcasts in the world, if not the first,

00:12:48 to have an agent

00:12:50 live on our show.

00:12:52 I’m just gonna go ahead and tease that.

Kenshin:00:12:55 Yeah. I think they did it in the Linux Unplugged.

00:12:58 Did they? A year ago.

McIntosh:00:13:00 Yeah. I listened to that show and I don’t recall that.

00:13:04 They’re experimenting with agents, but I don’t think they’ve done anything like that, kid. We need to go back and it doesn’t matter.

00:13:12 Yeah. It does. It certainly will only be the very

00:13:15 few will have done it. I’ll say that.

Kenshin:00:13:18 If we can get it in next few weeks. Yeah.

00:13:21 We can claim whatever we want. We’re number one. Yeah.

McIntosh:00:13:26 We are the number one podcast with agents. How about that?

00:13:30 Yeah. On a regular basis.

00:13:34 Oh, man. I don’t know. Whatever. That’s it.

00:13:38 I you know

00:13:41 Yeah.

00:13:44 Job stinks sometimes. That’s all there is to it. What is today’s topic, sir?

Kenshin:00:13:51 So we’re talking about

00:13:52 we just crossed a few hours ago today,

00:13:56 Tuesday the tenth.

00:13:58 We

00:13:59 what did I say? Tuesday the tenth. Yes. It was. We crossed the $2,020,000,000

00:14:05 Bitcoin

00:14:07 mined

00:14:08 out of the total, of course, 21,000,000 Bitcoin. So we only have 1,000,000 left to be mined for the next,

00:14:14 what is it? A hundred and fourteen years? Something like that. Yeah. Yep.

McIntosh:00:14:20 Hundred and fourteen years for the next 1,000,000 Bitcoin. You need to pause and let that sink in.

00:14:27 We are

00:14:29 twenty twenty one

00:14:30 is that a number?

00:14:32 Of the total supply.

00:14:34 It’s already been distributed.

00:14:37 It’s going to become and I’ve told you all this before. I’ve told you this years ago.

00:14:42 More and more difficult for you to

00:14:45 build

00:14:47 one Bitcoin.

00:14:49 Ultimately,

00:14:52 fifty years from now,

00:14:54 one Bitcoin,

00:14:56 I believe, will represent a tremendous amount of wealth.

00:15:01 Maybe less than fifty years from now.

00:15:04 But

00:15:06 fifty years from now, it will be virtually impossible

00:15:10 for for someone to start from zero and and put together one Bitcoin.

00:15:16 Does that if make if one Bitcoin is $20,000,000,

00:15:21 imagine that. Just

00:15:24 let’s just say fifty years from now, it’s $20,000,000.

00:15:27 The accomplishments

00:15:29 the accomplishment

00:15:30 of putting together

00:15:33$20,000,000

00:15:35 to buy Bitcoin,

00:15:37 it would be a lifetime achievement and very, very few people would be able to do that.

00:15:44 Mhmm.

00:15:45 And now, what

00:15:47 does it cost? 71,000?

00:15:52 Which is still, frankly, a lot of money for a lot of people, myself included.

00:15:56 But at least

00:15:58 at least at this point, you could actually say, well, if I worked really hard. A lot of people have vehicles that cost more than $70,000

00:16:07 or houses or whatever. Right?

00:16:10 Very few people live in $20,000,000 homes. I’ll put it that way.

00:16:14 You see the difference? Yeah.

00:16:16 Yeah. So

00:16:18 it’s a huge number.

00:16:24 Our supply schedule

00:16:26 is a is a real deal. Right? We have, every four years, the

00:16:31 the outgoing supply, the number of Bitcoin that are mined,

00:16:35 it goes it gets cut in half. That’s why it’s going to take that hundred and fourteen years to mine that last 1,000,000 Bitcoin. Mhmm. And in fact,

00:16:46 we’ll it’s

00:16:48 we’ll approach a half mill I wonder what the next half million, like 21

00:16:53 not 21.5,

00:16:5420,500,000.0.

00:16:56 When would that be? I bet we could figure it out. It probably it’ll only be a few years.

00:17:03 Yeah. You see what I’m just Yeah. It’s not so talked about this is that asymptotic

00:17:07 curve or whatever. You get closer and closer and closer,

00:17:11 but the closer you get, the harder it

Kenshin:00:17:14 it is. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I like to think the last four years is the most impressive to put everything into perspective.

00:17:23 Mhmm. The last four years, each block will only give one single Satoshi.

McIntosh:00:17:29 Well, we will depend on the transactions at that point. But yes, it will be 1 Bitcoin. Not 1 Bitcoin. Satoshi. Satoshi.

00:17:37 Yeah. Which is

00:17:38 nuts.

Kenshin:00:17:39 Yeah.

00:17:41 And now we send them like nothing on the It’s like 1,400

McIntosh:00:17:45 satoshis to a dollar.

00:17:48 Right? Yeah. So a hundred and fourteen years from now, if you can think that long, and that’s not really that long.

00:17:56 If you live to be 80,

00:17:58 that’s only your children’s lives beyond you.

00:18:03 If, like, if you were born right now, I’ll put it that way.

00:18:07 Right?

00:18:08 Yeah.

00:18:10 That’s not actually that long and that one Satoshi will be all that gets mine.

00:18:15 So a dollar’s worth, 1,400

00:18:18 Satoshis right now might represent

00:18:21 the sum total

00:18:23 of that block.

00:18:25 Let that sink in. And right now

00:18:29 what’s a block like $200,000

00:18:33 worth?

00:18:35 More.

00:18:37 So

00:18:39 if it’s worth the same value then

00:18:42 that means 1,400

00:18:44 satoshis would be

00:18:46230.

00:18:47 I don’t even that math just doesn’t even

Kenshin:00:18:50 Yeah. That that’s that’s where I also get a bit okay. Yeah. Yeah. If we go with

00:18:56 value per block in terms of the efforts

00:18:59 that takes to mine a block and the value

00:19:02 that miners get out of it, if it remains the same

00:19:06 and that one Satoshi represents that value

McIntosh:00:19:10 Right. At a point in time, yeah, we’re talking about But it’s not the it’s the Satoshi plus the transaction values. Right?

00:19:18 You gotta keep that in mind. But we don’t know. Because one Satoshi is never gonna be worth $233,000

00:19:24 or whatever. It’s 2 whatever it is. We don’t know. It could.

Kenshin:00:19:28 But in a hundred ten years, it could.

McIntosh:00:19:31 Okay. Well, then I’ll be a very rich person.

00:19:36 I will be dead but hopefully my children and my children’s children will

Kenshin:00:19:40 But still have also,

McIntosh:00:19:43 yeah, when we talk about transaction fees, you cannot expect transaction fees to stay the same. They will go to they’re already below one, Satoshi, which we haven’t seen. But I also think the network as it grows I I didn’t mean to get off on all this, and we need to move on, but the network itself is going to grow.

00:20:03 Yeah. When countries

00:20:04 are using Bitcoin as a global network currency,

00:20:08 right, a global trade, whatever they call it,

00:20:12 the fees are not gonna be $1.01

00:20:15 Satoshi per transaction.

00:20:17 It will cost hundreds of dollars

00:20:20 to send a single transaction across the bit Bitcoin

00:20:24 main net.

00:20:26 And at that point, if you have a decent amount of money on the main net,

00:20:31 today,

00:20:32 if you keep it, you’re gonna be rich.

00:20:34 Okay? I I’ll just put it that way. The average person will have some type of

00:20:41 reserve

00:20:42 in

00:20:43 Bitcoin Lightning

00:20:44 and a layer two.

00:20:46 They won’t have to spend a $100 to buy that coffee.

00:20:51 They’ll spend the transaction fees will be very minimal. Does that make sense?

00:20:56 Probably

00:20:58 some pay and probably some paper Bitcoin, it will be at the time of this point. Yes. Unfortunately, there will always be that. But if Satoshis themselves get too expensive,

00:21:10 Remember,

00:21:11 they’re they

00:21:13 the on the Lightning Network, they have the ability to it’s they I think they’re micro Satoshis or maybe it’s milli Satoshis.

00:21:20 It’s like a thousand

00:21:22 I wanna say it’s a thousand per satoshi.

00:21:26 So essentially, they’re dividing up a satoshi. Now, they have to keep track of all that. There’s a lot of complicated stuff involved,

00:21:33 but it is possible.

00:21:35 So if

00:21:37 let’s say something crazy if a Satoshi is 10¢.

00:21:43 Well, I I we’re at the point where we’re using millisotoshis.

00:21:47 Right? Or micro I’m sorry. I don’t know which it is called.

00:21:52 Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So we do have a scaling system. We’ll

00:21:58 see. The point is we have a fixed supply 21,000,000.

00:22:02 We’re twentieth

00:22:0320,000,000

00:22:04 in.

00:22:08 There’s there will never be a better time to stack Satoshis than right now.

Kenshin:00:22:13 Yeah. Especially now that we’re in the bear market and quite low in that. Alright. So

McIntosh:00:22:19 I wanted to point that out. I think that’s important to acknowledge these milestones.

00:22:24 We should look up before next week

00:22:26 or maybe you could do it while I’m unless you wanna talk it’s up to you.

00:22:32 Maybe we can look that up. Like, 21,500,000.0

Kenshin:00:22:36 Bitcoin. 20.5.

McIntosh:00:22:38 Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I keep saying 21. But Numbers are so hard. English numbers, I what do I got left? Nothing. The problem with AI is it’s not good at math. Well, that’s true.

00:22:50 The second thing that we wanted to talk about,

00:22:53 and there’s a purpose behind this, so please hang in there with us.

00:22:57 The second thing we wanna talk about is yesterday was thirty third anniversary

00:23:01 of the Cypher Cypherpunk

00:23:03 Manifesto.

00:23:04 What that was was a paper,

00:23:07 essentially,

00:23:08 that was released by Eric Hughes. So it was 03/09/1993.

00:23:14 I do not remember what I was doing on 03/09/1993.

00:23:18 I do I do know that I did not realize at that point that this paper had been released.

00:23:24 And to be honest, how it might how it would change my life. So

00:23:30 there was a group

00:23:32 called the cypherpunks.

00:23:33 There was a group of people who kind of labeled themselves cypherpunks.

00:23:38 And so you got kind of this punk imagery,

00:23:41 the cypher coming from cryptography,

00:23:44 from digital,

00:23:45 from online.

00:23:47 And so Eric Hughes released this paper. It is considered a foundational text

00:23:53 of the digital privacy movement. It’s not very long.

00:23:57 It would take you probably three minutes to read, I would say.

00:24:02 We will include it in the show notes. We’re not going to read it here online. I think I actually did at one point.

00:24:09 But

00:24:10 regardless,

00:24:11 we’re not actually gonna take time to read this today.

00:24:16 But we’re gonna pull out some of the points about it and we’re gonna talk about it and we’re gonna talk about how that relates back to Bitcoin.

00:24:23 Okay?

Kenshin:00:24:24 Sounds good.

McIntosh:00:24:27 So

00:24:28 what is this Cypherpunk manifestation

00:24:31 manifesto

00:24:32 about? It is a statement

00:24:34 that freedom in an electronic world depends on the ability to communicate

00:24:39 and transact

00:24:40 privately.

00:24:41 And that matters because Bitcoin did not just appear out of nowhere, it came out of a much older tradition

00:24:47 of people thinking seriously about privacy,

00:24:51 cryptography,

00:24:52 freedom, and what happens when more and more of the human life moves into digital systems. Before we dive into this, I want you to think for just a second.

00:25:03 If you were old enough to remember

00:25:05 what the digital world of 1993

00:25:08 was like.

00:25:10 Kenshin,

00:25:11 I don’t want to put you on the spot, but did you ever use AOL?

Kenshin:00:25:16 No. Not in Europe. I don’t think many did. Really?

McIntosh:00:25:20 It wasn’t in Europe? Okay.

00:25:22 So did you ever use dial up Internet?

Kenshin:00:25:25 Yeah. Okay.

McIntosh:00:25:28 So

00:25:29 we are talking about the time frame of dial up internet. This was the time period,

00:25:33 I’m trying to remember exactly, it was a couple years after this that I started my dial up internet.

00:25:39 I I in the area that I live in, I did actually start a dial up Internet

00:25:45 provider.

00:25:47 Literally, haze modems,

00:25:49 the whole nine yards. Beep, beep, beep, you know. This is actually how I got into Linux,

00:25:54 but that’s a different story for another day.

00:25:57 Not the same thing. The the Internet itself was barely commercialized.

00:26:03 I don’t know that AOL was an AOL.

00:26:06 Amazon was even around at that point.

00:26:09 It would be somewhere around that time frame.

00:26:14 Okay?

00:26:14 Just to give you an idea.

00:26:16 And yet, these people were already realizing

00:26:21 what the implications

00:26:23 were

00:26:24 of being online,

00:26:26 of having your data spread out there essentially for everyone.

00:26:32 And

00:26:33 the

00:26:35 prescience,

00:26:37 the

00:26:38 the ability to see down the road where all this was going, to me, is simply stunning.

00:26:45 And the people who were involved

00:26:48 included people like Mark Andreessen,

00:26:51 okay, who’s a now a

00:26:54 big

00:26:55 Andreessen was the one who invented the web

00:26:58 browser.

00:27:00 Am I correct in that?

Kenshin:00:27:03 I’m not sure.

McIntosh:00:27:05 Maybe

00:27:06 I’m not

00:27:10 hold on.

00:27:11 Yes.

00:27:12 He was the co author of Mosaic, the first web browser to display inline images.

00:27:20 Basically,

00:27:21 he invented the graphical internet. Now, was an internet prior to that, one that I remember very distinctly.

00:27:27 But he invented the graphical web browser.

00:27:31 Alright?

00:27:32 So Marc Andreessen was one person.

00:27:35 Adam Back. Who is Adam Back, Kenshin?

Kenshin:00:27:40 Yeah. He made Hashcash

00:27:42 and now he has the Blockstream

McIntosh:00:27:45 Right. Company. So he has a big company now, but, you know, obviously, he got involved in Bitcoin.

00:27:52 But if it weren’t for his

00:27:56 hashcash,

00:27:57 we wouldn’t have proof of work in Bitcoin

00:28:00 or at least it would not be the way it is,

00:28:03 certainly.

00:28:04 But he was doing that. If I’m not mistaken, it was for email spam.

00:28:10 Too bad that didn’t work out,

00:28:13 but he did do it.

00:28:16 There was a oh, Hal Finney,

00:28:18 my my bitcoin hero.

00:28:21 I just I’ve said that before.

00:28:24 Hal Finney was involved.

00:28:26 Not in writing this paper, but in this movement. I just wanna make that clear. So these people were meeting in, like, online

00:28:33 mailing lists.

00:28:34 That was kind of the primary mode of communication at that point for them. And there were a couple of different mailing lists. One the one that this was put out on was the first or second one. It doesn’t matter, but there was a couple of different ones. It was

Kenshin:00:28:51 the first one was released

00:28:54 in ‘92.

00:28:56 Okay. The Cypherpunk movement forum.

McIntosh:00:28:59 But there were no. There was something back in the eighties. Right? In the late eight eighty late eighties?

Kenshin:00:29:05 I

00:29:06 don’t have that here. Well,

McIntosh:00:29:08 it does you know, there were a couple of different groups. I did wanna say,

00:29:12 so

00:29:13 to our knowledge, Toshi Nakamoto was not actually involved in either one of these groups,

00:29:18 in either one of these mailing lists. There’s no direct evidence of that. I would not be well, in fact, you said this,

00:29:25 Kenshin. I would not be surprised if he was

00:29:29 involved under a different pseudonym.

Kenshin:00:29:31 Yeah.

McIntosh:00:29:32 He certainly aligns

00:29:35 with these principles and

00:29:37 with Hal Finney, for example, there was a direct connection.

Kenshin:00:29:41 Yeah. And you should you should have been following

00:29:44 the technological

00:29:46 advancements

00:29:47 that were discussed in that mailing list. Right. To put all the piece together to get this Exactly. Point out of

McIntosh:00:29:55 So

00:29:56 very, very interesting stuff. But from here, what I wanna do is

00:30:01 kind of

00:30:03 compare this. Go ahead.

Kenshin:00:30:05 Now before we get into the manifest itself, I also see another important name here, Phil Zimmerman.

00:30:11 He did he released PGP

00:30:14 Yes. Through that

00:30:16 mailing or through that group anyway in ‘91.

McIntosh:00:30:21 Right.

Kenshin:00:30:23 Right. Then we got the mailing list in ‘92, and then Eric Hughes released the Cypherpunk’s manifesto in ‘93.

McIntosh:00:30:30 Yep.

00:30:31 And oh, Dave

00:30:34 Chamin Chamin

00:30:35 Ecash.

00:30:37 I’m not getting his last name quite right, but,

00:30:40 he was involved in this as well. So you you really had this fermentation of knowledge that was going on that I believe,

00:30:48 frankly, peaked in in Bitcoin. I don’t think we’ve had anything

00:30:52 since that it’s been close.

00:30:56 So it’s

00:30:58 important,

00:30:59 I believe, to kind of understand where all this stuff is coming from. And I want you to take the opportunity

00:31:05 to reflect.

00:31:07 Here we are,

00:31:091990

00:31:10 I always get this wrong. 1993.

00:31:14 He’s talking I do wanna pull out a little bit of this.

00:31:21 In fact, here, I’ll pull this out right here.

00:31:27 Yep.

00:31:30 I wanna pull out a little bit about this. Let me let me read this paragraph. We and this is right in the middle of the document. We cannot expect governments,

00:31:38 corporations,

00:31:39 or other large faceless organizations

00:31:42 to grant us privacy

00:31:44 out of their, oh my goodness,

00:31:47 Beneficiants.

00:31:49 I I’m not exactly sure what that word means. I’ll be honest.

00:31:54 But just out of their,

00:31:56 goodwill,

00:31:57 maybe.

00:31:58 You know? Yeah. Exactly. Their goodwill. That’s what I heard. Advantage

00:32:02 to speak to us, and we should expect that they will speak. To try and prevent their speech

00:32:07 is to fight against the realities

00:32:10 of information. Information

00:32:12 does not just want to be free. It longs to be free. Information

00:32:18 expands

00:32:19 to fill

00:32:20 the available

00:32:21 storage space.

00:32:23 Information

00:32:24 is Rumor’s

00:32:25 younger,

00:32:26 stronger cousin.

00:32:27 Information

00:32:28 is fleeter of foot, has more eyes, knows more, and understands

00:32:33 less

00:32:34 than rumor. I think we could, like, spend a whole week in a college class talking about that one

00:32:39 paragraph,

00:32:40 But to give you some idea of what this is about,

00:32:44 they believed very strongly in freedom of speech

00:32:48 and freedom of privacy.

00:32:51 And they believed

00:32:52 that in a digital world,

00:32:55 we need to be very careful. We cannot count on the government

00:32:59 to Or corporations. To guard us.

00:33:01 That

00:33:04 they needed to build open source available code

00:33:09 products and tools and whatever,

00:33:11 like PGP,

00:33:13 for example.

00:33:14 And not to, you know

00:33:16 well, to talk about Phil for just a minute, he developed that you said what? ‘91? It was in the early nineties.

00:33:23 Yeah.

00:33:24 Released it. So PGP

00:33:26 stands for pretty good privacy, but to my knowledge, it’s never been broken, but we’ll just you know, he’s being humble. And

00:33:34 it was

00:33:35 it’s it’s used to encrypt data files. It’s it was used or is used to encrypt email communications,

00:33:42 this kind of thing.

00:33:43 But it has a lot wider range of use outside of

00:33:47 It’s completely free. It’s completely open source.

00:33:51 And he got in trouble for it. He spent years fighting the US government over

00:33:57 it.

00:34:02 I don’t think he ever spent any time in jail,

00:34:07 but fighting the US government is not a fun thing to do.

Kenshin:00:34:13 But they didn’t want

McIntosh:00:34:16 that encryption available because they realized it was so

00:34:20 strong and so difficult.

00:34:22 And

00:34:24 yet, we’ve had case after case

00:34:27 where

00:34:30 it’s been determined that code is speech

00:34:34 and written right into the constitution of The United States. We have freedom of speech. Now, there are limits on that.

00:34:41 You can’t yell fire in a movie theater is a very common example.

00:34:46 Right?

00:34:47 But,

00:34:49 in general,

00:34:50 freedom of speech is something that’s granted to,

00:34:54 not granted, that we have a right to as a US citizen.

00:35:02 So,

00:35:03 therefore, it makes it very easy to translate that over into freedom of online privacy.

00:35:10 Right?

00:35:11 I have a right

00:35:13 for

00:35:14 a

00:35:16 government or a corporation I

00:35:18 well, let me finish my thought. Not to track me online.

00:35:24 I wanna tell you something freaky.

00:35:26 You

00:35:27 guys know

00:35:28 I talk about

00:35:30 occasionally.

00:35:31 One day, I wanna get a buffalo ranch. Right?

00:35:36 I’ve been working really hard the last week. So

00:35:40 one night,

00:35:42 I told chat GBT, I said, hey.

00:35:45 Let’s just dream a little bit. If I have x amount of money

00:35:49 and I wanted to buy some land

00:35:53 up,

00:35:53 it’s and specifically,

00:35:55 this was ChatGPT

00:35:56 and that actually that ties into what I’m about to say.

00:36:00 I want some land and I looked at, like, West Virginia and Arkansas. There was a few places I looked. I said,

00:36:07 show me what I could get. Search the real estate listings,

00:36:11 blah blah blah. And I kinda told it, you know, really in

00:36:14 pretty good detail what I wanted.

00:36:16 By the way, I’ll be buying my ranch in West Virginia. But anyways,

00:36:22 two days later,

00:36:25 I’m on Facebook.

00:36:28 And I’m only on Facebook, Kenshin,

00:36:30 because

00:36:31 I grew up in the generation where

00:36:34 that’s what we all used. It was the first super widely popular social platform.

00:36:39 People of my age tend to you know, we’ve got friends that have

00:36:43 grandkids maybe or kids

00:36:46 that they got pictures of, blah blah blah, all this kind of stuff. Right?

00:36:50 So I’m scrolling on Facebook.

00:36:54 You know what comes up?

00:36:57 Some ranch

00:36:59 trying to sell me a half or a quarter of a buffalo.

00:37:05 Kenshin, I’ve never

00:37:08 seen an ad like this before.

00:37:11 And

00:37:12 I will tell you there’s a direct link between what I put in to open

00:37:17 or to chat GPT, to open AI or whatever,

00:37:21 and that ad.

Kenshin:00:37:23 Yeah.

McIntosh:00:37:24 So

00:37:25 you can target I know this because I’ve done it. You can target audiences

00:37:30 in Facebook based on

00:37:33 data,

00:37:34 demographic data.

00:37:36 And clearly,

00:37:37 OpenAI is now selling our data

00:37:43 and apparently very fresh data at that.

Kenshin:00:37:47 Yeah. But usually it’s Facebook marketers.

00:37:50 Yeah. Usually it’s within the same company or group of companies, but opening up sharing to Facebook.

00:37:56 Yeah. Or is the third party cookies then?

McIntosh:00:38:00 Was it the same device maybe you used? No. It was not the same device. I actually

00:38:06 looked it up on this device. So on Linux,

00:38:11 they they had to have basically sold the results of that query,

00:38:17 saying this person with this account who it is the same email that I used to log into Facebook

00:38:26 is is looking at Buffalo

00:38:28 and so

00:38:29 not Buffalo ran, mean they didn’t get it quite right, but there’s no way that that ad did not get to me any other way.

00:38:37 So this to me personally, frankly, is an

00:38:41 example

00:38:42 of an invasion of my privacy.

00:38:45 Yeah. OpenAI didn’t say, hey, we’re gonna release your data. Now, I had heard that they were about to start doing that.

00:38:53 But this is but but they were gonna start doing ads,

00:38:57 not they were gonna sell my data.

Kenshin:00:39:00 But

00:39:01 there there is a few a few things here because first of all, if you pay for the

00:39:07 pro account or whichever account Yes. Then they are not training on your data.

McIntosh:00:39:12 So they’re not supposed to sell. But the interesting part is now I I was on a pro plan, actually. No. I was on the $200 a month plan because I’m trying to get this agent stuff going. Remember? So so you know what’s probably happened

Kenshin:00:39:26 is your

00:39:28 your queries

00:39:30 Mhmm. Through your ISP or whatever

00:39:33 are out there. That may be true. Your IP is looking for that type of information.

McIntosh:00:39:39 That may be what happened, but I was on my Linux

00:39:42 machine

00:39:43 when I looked at OpenAI.

00:39:45 I was on my phone because I don’t have Facebook on. I don’t open Facebook on here. I only have it on my phone.

Kenshin:00:39:52 Yeah.

00:39:53 Yeah. That’s why you need to protect your whole your

McIntosh:00:39:56 whole home network. You need to protect it. And I found out how expensive Buffalo is.

00:40:00 How how much? I think I need to raise my own.

Kenshin:00:40:08 Oh, man. For half a buffalo, you said they were?

McIntosh:00:40:12 They were selling halves and quarters. Yeah. No. But they didn’t even offer a full buff you normally, you can buy like a whole cow or a half cow or sometimes a quarter. They don’t normally do quarters with cows.

00:40:24 But apparently, well, buffalo are much bigger.

00:40:27 They don’t even do the whole buffalo. At least this company did not.

00:40:32 It was kinda wild. Alright.

00:40:37 This to me, this is an example of essentially an invasion of my privacy. That was none of their business, though. Now, did I benefit from it?

00:40:47 Maybe. Did I do it by choice? No.

00:40:51 You see what I’m saying? Yeah. Yeah. So

00:40:55 Yeah. This stuff is very relevant because

00:40:59 as AI gets smarter

00:41:01 and tooling gets better built, if you don’t think that AI is gonna be used to super target people, you are asleep at the wheel.

00:41:11 Yeah.

00:41:13 And this is one of the things, in fact,

00:41:16 we haven’t really talked about this, but

00:41:20 Claude, Anthropic,

00:41:22 the company,

00:41:24 recently got in trouble with US government.

00:41:27 So they have apparently a $200,000,000

00:41:29 contract with the government.

00:41:31 A lot of money.

Kenshin:00:41:32 I saw that. Yeah. Right.

McIntosh:00:41:34 And they said

00:41:38 Anthropic said, you can’t use our code to do two things, to, like,

00:41:43 basically target systems

00:41:45 because we don’t think it’s accurate enough. It makes mistakes.

00:41:50 And we you cannot use it to surveil the American people.

00:41:55 And the government came back and said, Nope, that doesn’t work for us.

00:42:01 So there’s a big brouhaha about that.

00:42:05 These things are important. They will get used regardless.

00:42:09 We know it’s going to happen.

00:42:11 I’m sure the data people, the people who harvest this data or whatever, I mean, they’re just going to town on this stuff. They may have some of the smartest people in AI involved

00:42:22 already.

00:42:23 They just don’t wanna talk about it.

00:42:27 Because

00:42:28 I mean, seriously,

00:42:30 the things that we do, we just don’t even think about like that. I mean, who would ever why would that show?

00:42:37 But clearly,

00:42:39 they picked up those bread crumbs.

Kenshin:00:42:41 Yeah.

00:42:42 Yeah. Yeah. I

00:42:43 have an anecdote, a very short one. I had a friend

00:42:46 in university.

00:42:48 He used to it was his strategy. He said, I will Google

00:42:53 this. I want new shoes, like tennis shoes. I’ll Google it.

00:42:58 Then

00:42:59 I just go on Instagram

00:43:01 and wait for the ads to pop. Right.

McIntosh:00:43:03 It’s the same type thing.

Kenshin:00:43:05 Oh, no. He did on purpose. That was his shopping

00:43:08 strategy to get the relevant ads.

McIntosh:00:43:12 But that can be abused.

00:43:14 Yeah. Right? Yeah. And it has been abused in the past, and I think it’s going to get far worse.

00:43:20 I really do. Government

00:43:23 Yep.

00:43:26 Alright. Back to the topic. These people were

00:43:30 super

00:43:33 I can’t imagine

00:43:34 back then going,

00:43:36 hey. All this stuff is actually gonna get really bad, and we need to worry about that.

00:43:43 Because we were like, oh, Internet.

00:43:46 Oh,

00:43:47 let’s go to that website. Oh, look here.

00:43:50 Right?

00:43:52 It’s crazy

00:43:54 how foresighted these people were.

Kenshin:00:43:56 Yeah. Exactly. Do you know Tim Berners Lee?

McIntosh:00:44:00 Yes.

Kenshin:00:44:02 He’s

00:44:03 yeah. He’s, accredited

00:44:05 some some

00:44:06 circles that he introduced Internet. Right?

00:44:11 In CERN. Yeah. But of course,

00:44:13 you in The US, you want to claim it also. Anyway

McIntosh:00:44:19 anyway Okay. We’re not gonna have that argument.

Kenshin:00:44:22 Yeah. So he he was in in a seminar.

McIntosh:00:44:26 He was the inventor of the World Wide Web, sir, not the Internet. The Internet was around before the World Wide Web.

Kenshin:00:44:33 Right. Okay. Yes. Fair. Fair distinction. Sorry.

McIntosh:00:44:38 Yes. But he is sir Tim Bernerle.

Kenshin:00:44:40 Sir sir Sir. Yeah. He’s a sir. Sir Tim Bernersby. He is a knight.

00:44:46 Yeah. So I I was lucky to

00:44:49 to go to a seminar where where he talked

00:44:52 Sweet.

00:44:53 In the mid two thousands around, I don’t know, 2006,

00:44:57 maybe, ‘7.

00:44:58 So

00:45:00 at that time you remember it was a lot of things were happening online. A lot of new apps, new websites.

00:45:08 Web two point I think was just starting at the time.

00:45:11 And he

00:45:13 was

00:45:14 ringing the bell, let’s say, of

00:45:17 be careful and everything is the wild wild west

00:45:22 and it’s very,

00:45:24 yeah, unsafe

00:45:25 to be the data on the Internet and everything like that.

00:45:29 And I came out of that seminar a bit in shock with a friend of mine and we were like, wow, we had no clue

00:45:36 that oh, we thought we are so advanced now with all of this Internet stuff. And we had no clue of the creator of the World of Wild West essentially telling us that it’s still the Wild Wild West out there and be careful.

00:45:51 And

00:45:52 we’re not where we should be with privacy and security and Right. Data going around

McIntosh:00:45:59 like that. And and I don’t know that we can ever be

00:46:02 a 100%

00:46:03 sure,

00:46:04 unfortunately,

00:46:06 of privacy

00:46:07 and

00:46:08 security of our data online.

00:46:11 I

00:46:12 would I would throw that out there. I would say that. It it doesn’t

00:46:16 matter

00:46:18 it does matter what we do.

00:46:20 But ultimately,

00:46:22 what we do may not be enough and we don’t even know it. Does that make sense?

00:46:27 Yep. Yeah. Okay. So Bitcoin,

00:46:31 in respect to this Cypherpunk movement,

00:46:34 might be one of the biggest victories that come out of it. But, unfortunately,

00:46:39 the privacy battle that

00:46:42 these people warned us about and people like what you’re talking about with Tim Berns Lee warning us about may actually in fact, I would not even say May.

00:46:52 It is more urgent now than it ever was.

Kenshin:00:46:56 Mhmm.

McIntosh:00:46:59 We talk about cypherpunks here, and I could just see people’s eyes glaze over. They’re like, this is crazy. What are these people talking about? Blah blah blah.

00:47:09 Their core view is that privacy is not gonna be protected.

00:47:14 Not by the governments, not by corporations,

00:47:17 because the corporations

00:47:18 profit from it

00:47:20 and the governments don’t care because well, or they want backdoor access.

00:47:25 Yeah. We’ve seen this over and over again to

00:47:28 to

00:47:30 and they’ll frame it in ways that sound good. Oh,

00:47:35 We wanna, you know,

00:47:37 we want to protect our citizens. We want to get the bad guys,

00:47:41 whatever.

00:47:43 But

00:47:44 it is overreaching

00:47:45 and it does have harmful side effects when that kind of thing happens.

Kenshin:00:47:52 Yeah.

00:47:53 And the solution of the cyberpunks essentially was that instead

00:47:57 of

00:47:58 asking for better laws Yes. Better

00:48:01 whatever,

00:48:02 for companies to be nicer or the government to be private. Right. Instead of all that, what they did was to essentially build the tools, build the cryptography

00:48:12 Right.

00:48:13 Take take matters in their own hands, and and as they say here also is trying to make institutions

00:48:20 less necessary if that makes sense. Yes.

00:48:26 And this is where we are today. We have some great tools, not only Bitcoin. I mean, have a lot of open source tools

00:48:32 that make our lives much better, like even

00:48:35 Signal and those type of communication tools that are private and secure, and

00:48:40 and they’re still getting

00:48:42 a fight back from the EU, for example, to to

00:48:47 outlaw end to end encryption and all these things, essentially.

00:48:52 So all this stems from that time.

McIntosh:00:48:55 So during this time period that we’re talking about, the eighties, the late eighties, early nineties,

00:49:00 I certainly remember that time.

00:49:04 Maybe not one day, but for now I do.

00:49:07 And I don’t I think people who’ve grown up since then don’t realize how much has changed.

00:49:15 It was your life, unless you were, like, a super nerd,

00:49:21 you were not online. I remember getting online in

00:49:25 probably ‘84,

00:49:26'85 on a modem, getting into bulletin board systems. But trust me,

00:49:31 the average person,

00:49:33 the average kid was not. They didn’t have any idea what was going on.

00:49:40 You couldn’t aggregate your purchases.

00:49:43 It like, you could not track everything that you bought because most of what you used was cash

00:49:48 or checks and the banks didn’t keep

00:49:51 long term records like they do now.

00:49:54 Your conversations were not living forever

00:49:57 up in the cloud.

00:49:59 I mean, you can just assume if you’re talking on a cell phone or whatever that that

00:50:04 conversation can be

00:50:06 listened to.

00:50:09 And

00:50:10 if you don’t have it encrypted,

00:50:13 you can also assume

00:50:14 your conversations

00:50:16 and your transactions and whatever online

00:50:19 are

00:50:20 able to be and maybe most likely are being intercepted,

00:50:25 analyzed, updated, and with data extracted from that and stored.

00:50:30 And it’s all done without your consent.

00:50:34 That wasn’t happening. The other thing is

00:50:37 your

00:50:38 location

00:50:41 wasn’t constantly being

00:50:43 beamed out to the world

00:50:44 by your cell phone because we didn’t have cell phones.

00:50:49 And even for a long time after cell phones came out, that ability was not there. Now that is just standard stuff.

Kenshin:00:50:58 Mhmm.

00:50:59 You know, even the standard,

00:51:02 ping that the phone does to update its time every day Right. Many times a day. This is part of why I have a Graphene OS phone because it even takes away those type of Google things. It doesn’t mean that there wasn’t any surveillance. There was. But it was a lot more expensive. It was slower.

McIntosh:00:51:20 It was hard to automate. It actually took work.

00:51:23 And it just couldn’t be built into

00:51:26 everyday activities the way that it is now.

00:51:31 And I would argue

00:51:33 well,

00:51:34 and back in the eighties,

00:51:36 to tap someone’s phone, you had to get a warrant.

00:51:39 Now they just go tap somebody on the shoulder and say, I need to figure out what this person’s doing.

00:51:48 It’s what’s going on.

00:51:50 So

00:51:51 back then, the fears were the digital networks are gonna become

00:51:55 tools of mass surveillance.

00:51:56 Congratulations.

00:51:57 That’s exactly where we’re at today. And the only way we can fight back with that is encryption,

00:52:03 is security tools,

00:52:05 and it’s

00:52:06 all the kind of things that

00:52:09 the Cypherpunk Manifesto talks about. And those mailing lists, those people who we thought were so fringe and so crazy,

00:52:18 all the things that they were talking about.

Kenshin:00:52:23 Right.

00:52:25 So

00:52:26 so in essence,

00:52:29 what

00:52:30 they managed,

00:52:31 what they achieved, I would say, is that

00:52:36 for Bitcoin, if we bring it back to Bitcoin,

00:52:38 they brought us the tools to

00:52:41 make Bitcoin self custodial

00:52:44 Mhmm. To make it open source

00:52:46 Mhmm. To make it private

McIntosh:00:52:48 To make it follow a set of rules.

Kenshin:00:52:50 Yeah.

00:52:51 Censorship resistant

00:52:53 and reduce the trust in government and corporations and banks, etcetera.

McIntosh:00:52:59 I I believe that, I think I said this earlier, but I believe that Bitcoin is the most maybe

00:53:06 the most successful tool that came out of this movement.

00:53:10 Unfortunately,

00:53:13 I think we have to acknowledge that certainly at this point

00:53:17 that Bitcoin is not as privacy

00:53:20 focused and default,

00:53:23 you know, default privacy

00:53:26 is

00:53:28 I don’t think it’s good enough.

00:53:30 I don’t. This is the one thing I harp about on Bitcoin.

00:53:34 I really wish there was more privacy built in by default.

00:53:39 I send a transaction,

00:53:41 it should be anonymous,

00:53:43 it should be

00:53:44 non trackable,

00:53:46 like all of this stuff should be built in. And this is where the Monero people step in and they go, oh, we’re private, blah blah blah. And they also don’t have any market share.

00:54:02 And

00:54:03 the potential

00:54:04 is there to add on the appropriate primitives, the appropriate tooling

00:54:09 into Bitcoin to allow

00:54:11 that and to make those things default.

00:54:15 Is

00:54:16 that fair?

Kenshin:00:54:18 Sure. I mean, there are best practices also you can follow by

00:54:21 not reusing addresses and things like that. You’re correct.

McIntosh:00:54:25 Yeah.

00:54:26 But unless all the tools,

00:54:29 all the wallets, all the unless they all do that, it doesn’t matter.

00:54:33 Right. And if everyone keeps their

00:54:36 Bitcoin and ETFs

00:54:38 or on Coinbase and not in their own wallets,

00:54:41 then Mhmm. We’ve lost.

00:54:44 Mhmm. There’s always gonna be people that do those things, but if the overwhelming

00:54:48 majority

00:54:49 do, we’ve lost.

Kenshin:00:54:51 Right. Yeah. But

00:54:53 you said one thing. You said that

00:54:55 do you personally think that Bitcoin is the best that came out of that group?

00:55:01 Because I think I disagree.

00:55:02 I

McIntosh:00:55:05 say that because I believe I know where Bitcoin is going. Now, I could be incorrect,

00:55:12 but there’s no other tool that can bring,

00:55:17 I hope,

00:55:19 a better world in the same way.

00:55:22 If Bitcoin truly is a global world reserve currency

00:55:26 and if the average person across the world is using bitcoin instead of

00:55:31 the e narrow or whatever

00:55:34 crap they come up with,

00:55:36 the world is a much better place.

00:55:40 Mhmm. In terms of privacy, no. It’s not better.

00:55:44 In terms of its ability to bring about those things though,

00:55:50 I do believe that, yes, it’s probably the most important.

00:55:53 The encryption stuff,

00:55:56 honestly, yes. It’s

00:55:58 it’s super maybe it’s more important right now.

00:56:01 Yeah. And maybe that’s what is that what you’re Yeah.

Kenshin:00:56:05 End to end encryption, I think is

McIntosh:00:56:07 There’s truth to that because it will help properly

00:56:12 used it will help with all this

00:56:15 panopticon of digital surveillance.

00:56:18 But in the long run

00:56:21 that just makes

00:56:22 certain people

00:56:24 more secure.

00:56:26 And actually,

00:56:27 if the average person doesn’t use it, it will point them out as being

00:56:32 potential

00:56:33 problems.

00:56:34 Right? If you’re the only person who’s

00:56:37 encrypting all of your stuff,

00:56:40 then the government zeros in on that person.

00:56:43 What have they got to hide?

00:56:45 None of your business, but that’s what that’s the way that they think.

00:56:50 If we achieve widespread

00:56:52 Bitcoin adoption,

00:56:54 I really think it solves some of the big problems we have in the world.

00:56:58 Maybe they’re both equally important. Maybe you’re right. I don’t know.

Kenshin:00:57:02 Yeah. Eventually

McIntosh:00:57:03 yeah. No. Eventually, you’re right. Bitcoin will be the most important. And that’s really the way I think about it. I don’t look at it right now because right now, no. It’s not. I agree a 100%.

00:57:13 It’s not.

00:57:14 Right.

Kenshin:00:57:16 And that’s our question of the week by the way. Oh gosh.

McIntosh:00:57:21 There you go. Say it again please for the audience.

Kenshin:00:57:24 So did the cyberpunks

00:57:26 win more in money than they did in privacy?

McIntosh:00:57:31 Great.

00:57:32 Alright. So why do these people matter? I think this is a very good

00:57:37 list right here and we’ll close this

00:57:40 with we’ll close with this close this segment.

00:57:43 They laid out a philosophical and technical groundwork for Bitcoin. Without the cipherpunks,

00:57:48 we would not have Bitcoin.

00:57:50 You cannot emphasize that enough. Bitcoin does reflect core cipherpunk values,

00:57:56 self custody,

00:57:57 open source code,

00:57:59 privacy,

00:58:00 put a question mark beside that,

00:58:02 whatever,

00:58:03 censorship resistance,

00:58:05 reducing trust in governments, banks, and corporations. The only one I would argue about is privacy.

00:58:10 I just don’t we’re not there yet, I don’t think.

00:58:14 I think we can do better if we can stop arguing about everything.

00:58:19 But,

00:58:20 we’ll see. Alright. The

00:58:23 the interesting thing is privacy on Lightning is actually far ahead, in my opinion, of privacy on the main net.

00:58:32 We may get the privacy by default

00:58:35 simply because we’re forced to use the main Lightning

00:58:38 network

00:58:40 instead of the main net.

00:58:44 There

00:58:44 are

00:58:45 interesting

00:58:47 privacy additions that are being discussed. I see a better chance of those happening on lightning than on the main net frankly. I I

00:58:55 well, yeah.

00:58:57 Alright.

00:58:59 Nice. Very cool. What block heights are we at, sir?

Kenshin:00:59:04940,146.

McIntosh:00:59:08 And our price, at least as we started recording, was 70,700

00:59:14 US

00:59:17 Benjamin Franklin’s.

00:59:18 No. Right.

00:59:20 That’s not George Washington’s. I knew that. George Washington, our first president is on the dollar. Anyways. Okay.

00:59:27 What about the Yeah.

Kenshin:00:59:3060,700.

McIntosh:00:59:32 And how many kroner? Kroners? Swedish

Kenshin:00:59:35 kroner? It’s

00:59:36 around the euros times

00:59:3911

00:59:40 So Wow.

McIntosh:00:59:42600 and Oh my goodness.

Kenshin:00:59:44 Let’s say 670,000

00:59:46 Swedish.

McIntosh:00:59:47 Price last March 10.

00:59:50 So a year ago, $78,532,

00:59:54 down 9%.

00:59:57 What do we got for our market cap? So we have Bitcoin

Kenshin:01:00:00 at around 1,420,000,000,000.00

01:00:03 US dollars,

01:00:05 and gold we have at 36,450,000,000,000.00,

01:00:08 which brings us at 3.9%,

01:00:11 still under 5%. Man.

McIntosh:01:00:13 I noticed gold is trending up. Bit Bitcoin is trending up a little bit, but gold is creeping back up to an all time high.

01:00:20 We’re at, like, $5,200

01:00:22 or something

01:00:23 Woah. This morning.

01:00:26 Silver is moving although it has more of a move. I mean, gold is only

01:00:32 it was like 5,600,

01:00:33 I wanna say. Silver is at 90.

01:00:37 And so it’s,

01:00:39 like, got a 25%

01:00:40 move to get up to a 120.

01:00:43 I think I did that math right. So it’s got a ways to go compared to gold, but my guess is they seem they’ll they’ll probably both get there at the same time, and then we’ll see.

01:00:55 We’ve got our top assets, gold, silver, Nvidia,

01:00:59 Apple, Alphabet, Mike, which is Google, Microsoft, Amazon,

01:01:03 TSMC,

01:01:05 Saudi Aramco,

01:01:06 which I’m gonna guess theirs is gonna go up.

01:01:10 Oil prices, of course, are going

01:01:12 higher.

01:01:13 And then finally, Facebook

01:01:15 digital digital.

01:01:17 Bitcoin’s not even on the list.

01:01:20 No. How depressing.

Kenshin:01:01:21 Eleventh maybe.

01:01:23 Yeah.

McIntosh:01:01:24 Alright. 52.31%

01:01:26 to the next halving,

01:01:2704/11/2028.

01:01:29 Two years, thirty two days.

01:01:31 Why don’t you take the fees in Mempool, sir?

Kenshin:01:01:35 Right. So we have around one sat per v byte still in the mempool

01:01:41 or asset transaction fee for a Bitcoin transaction.

01:01:45 And we have

01:01:4631 megabytes only on processed transactions,

01:01:49 which is around 29,000

01:01:52 transactions on processed, which sounds

01:01:55 unlikely.

McIntosh:01:01:56 It’s wrong. It can be. I’ve seen it depends. Sometimes the transactions are bigger. I I don’t know. They seem it seems to

Kenshin:01:02:04 If you see mempool dot space now, it says 185

01:02:08 megabytes

01:02:09 and thirty thirty one thousand transactions. So, yeah, we need to adjust that

01:02:15 metric there. Well,

McIntosh:01:02:17 it fluctuates all the time. Hey. We got a couple of boosts

01:02:21 I want to point

01:02:22 out.

01:02:24 Why don’t you take the first one? Do you have it up?

Kenshin:01:02:27 Yeah. The first one is Bulleys Boosts

01:02:30 Mhmm. From Bulleys Clips,

01:02:33100 So 11

McIntosh:01:02:35 he’s the guy, right, that does the

01:02:39 the marketplace.

01:02:40 Yeah. Yeah. Very cool stuff. And we also had Aldum at Fountain dot FM sent us 210 sats, and he said,

01:02:49 Macintosh has been well over six months. You should be ANCAT by now.

01:02:53 Being the old person that I am, I’ll admit that. Although you didn’t know what it was either.

Kenshin:01:02:58 Not the abbreviation, ANCAT. No.

McIntosh:01:03:01 Anarcho capitalist.

01:03:03 No. I’m not an anarcho capitalist. I will never be one.

01:03:07 I we live in a very flawed system. I’m I’m well aware of that. I just don’t think

01:03:13 that the average person is capable of governing themselves.

01:03:17 We can debate that. That’s fine. Whatever.

01:03:21 I’m all for

01:03:22 like I said, I’m I’m a basically a libertarian,

01:03:25 essentially. I’m all for the basically,

01:03:28 the government getting out of my way. But I also think there has to be some guidelines.

01:03:35 I I I just I don’t know. We could debate that. I I’m over here building agents. That’s all I know.

Kenshin:01:03:45 It’s good enough.

McIntosh:01:03:46 But I appreciate it. I appreciate the feedback and I’m glad glad to hear you. That’s he’s

01:03:52 they have boosted in before. I remember that name.

01:03:55 Right. Great to hear from you again.

01:03:59 Alright. We

01:04:00 got our that. I think that’s it, really.

01:04:04 No. Thanks. We’re good. You got anything else you want to add before we close-up?

01:04:09 No. No. I did want to add this. There may not be anybody else this applies to. I meant to bring this up earlier,

01:04:17 but got sidetracked.

01:04:22 I know you know I well, I listened to the Podcast two point o podcast with Adam Curry and Dave

01:04:28 Jones,

01:04:29 and that’s about podcasting.

01:04:31 But Adam

01:04:32 has for,

01:04:34 like, almost twenty years done a podcast with John c Dvorak

01:04:38 called No Agenda.

01:04:40 And I used to listen to a lot. I don’t listen to it a whole lot anymore,

01:04:45 But I I wanna tell a very quick story, like twenty seconds, I promise.

01:04:51 When I was growing up in the eighties,

01:04:54 John c Devoret did columns that I would read. He was like the one journalist that I remember

01:05:01 from that time period. BoardWatch Magazine,

01:05:04 Computer World, I think he had an article in every week or every month.

01:05:09 There was a he peed there was

01:05:12 some other computer magazines that he was in as well.

01:05:15 Great columnist,

01:05:18 and he’s done this show he’s in his seventies.

01:05:22 He’s done this show with John now for almost or with Adam for almost twenty years.

01:05:27 I happened to tune into an episode like a week ago,

01:05:31 and apparently John had a heart attack. Not a well, actually did have a heart attack. He went to the doctor

01:05:37 to get some blood work, started feeling bad. The doctor checked him out, admitted into the ER.

01:05:44 Apparently, he did have a minor heart attack in the ER or in the hospital, I’m not sure,

01:05:50 but he had a double bypass.

01:05:53 So I think they said he was 73 years old.

01:05:57 He ended up having to have a double bypass and he’s fine. He apparently got through it fine.

01:06:02 But now

01:06:04 his wife has started, which I’ve never heard her before. She’s funny.

01:06:10 She’s

01:06:10 doing the show with Adam while

01:06:14 he recovers.

01:06:16 Plan is for him to come back.

01:06:19 Don’t know. Somebody might wanna know that. He’s very well known in computer circles, at least old computer circles.

01:06:27 I was very sad to hear that, although I’m I’m very happy, of course, that he’s

01:06:32 doing much better.

01:06:34 I mean, at some point, we all have to face our death. It’s just what it is. But

01:06:40 maybe 73 might be a little young.

01:06:45 Anyways, I just thought I’d throw that out. Sorry. Right. That’s a bit I don’t wanna end on a downer. Actually, it’s it’s great. It sounds like in about a month he’s gonna be back.

01:06:53 It’s amazing at least here in The United States what they do with open heart surgery these days.

01:07:00 It’s crazy. I mean, he’s up and walking already.

01:07:03 Like, had a double bypass.

01:07:06 Alright.

01:07:07 Satoshi’s Plebs is a value for value podcast supporting podcasting two point o. We strive to bring you honest Bitcoin content every week.

01:07:14 We ask, are you getting value from the show? Support it through time, talent, treasure, help with future projects,

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01:07:42 Support independent Bitcoin media. If you like the content, I would love it if you would write a review on Apple and tell your friends about the podcast. That is the best way for us to grow. This week’s music,

01:07:54 I picked this one. Hope you like it. It’s Nothing Left To Say by Jaded Jester. Any boost any

01:08:01 any boost or streaming of Sats during that song will go straight to the artist.

Kenshin:01:08:05 Alright.

01:08:06 So thanks again for joining us this week. You’ll hear from us again next Thursday morning. Mhmm. We hope this have been has been helpful, and we would love to hear from you on Nostr or on Fountain.

01:08:17 You can also find all our contact info at satoshis-plebs.com.

01:08:22 Stay humble. Stack those sats, and have a great weekend.